Wednesday, June 1, 2011

GOP Makes Government Larger, More Intrusive, and Costlier, While Being MORE Unresponsive to Citizens

I personally have found that whenever I look at conservative proposals that they label "common sense solutions" what that is code for is a proposal that benefits some segment of their donors, not their base; that those solutions either grossly ignore facts or are so superficial in their analysis as to be utterly unaware of the facts of the problem, or what they define as the problem.  In short, while their common sense solutions might make good sound bytes, they stink, they lack merit, they are frequently intellectually dishonest and lack any factual basis or justification.  Invariably, instead of being cost-effective or cost-reducing, they cost more money - usually in the form of an unfunded mandate that shifts the burden to someone else, unfairly and without their consent.

One recent example has been the Voter ID legislation vetoed by Governor Dayton.

There is zero evidence of voter fraud being a significant problem in Minnesota; it has never changed the outcome of an election despite this being a vigorously held urban myth on the right.  They can produce no evidence; they simply BELIEVE that it exists, on faith.  Their legislation would cost an estimated $23 million dollars, which would have to be paid for at the local level, while all of the county election officials agree that this will impede the efficiency of elections without producing any demonstrable benefit.  The county and local entities that have to pay for this don't have a say in having to fund this.  The Right provides ZERO financial support for this stupidity.

Governor Dayton wisely vetoed the legislation for a solid assortment of reasons.  Instead, in an attempt to show that he was going to be tough on this non-existent voter fraud, as a concession to this paranoia on the right, Dayton issued this executive order.  This will clearly cost far less than the GOP legislation, be far more effective in providing counties and other local government the tools they need to check for felon voters, and it doesn't disenfranchise anyone in the process, as the GOP legislation would do.

But a better question to ask. is it time to stop barring our felons from voting? We need to be asking what benefits do we receive from this aspect of penalizing crime and what benefits or harm might there be from discontinuing to do so?  The United States has the largest population of people incarcerated in the world, more even than China or Russia.  Approximately 70% of them are non-white.  The population behind bars has QUADRUPLED since the Reagan era.  This graph, courtesy of Wikipedia's article Incarceration in the United States, provides a handy quick reference to how we compare to comparable countries.  We are not just jailing a little more of our population, we are jailling a LOT more of our population:

The stats source is the World Prison Population List. 8th edition. Prisoners per 100,000 population

When disenfranchising felons was customary in our earlier history, there were far far fewer people affected on a percentage / per capita basis, and far far fewer crimes were felonies.  As this has changed, overwhelmingly those who are affected have disproportionately been black or other minorities, turning disenfranchisement of felons effectively Jim Crow laws.  While this suits Republican ideology and preferences, it is contrary to the notion of one man one vote on which representative government in this country was founded.


What was not known at the time that we disenfranchised felons that we know now was that there were benefits to felons voting.  Studies show that when felons vote, legally, after their convictions and sentences have been served, they are far less likely to reoffend.  Recidivism is a huge problem in this country; again from the wikipedia article, (because I'm hoping readers will inform themselves further, and it is a good place to start) from the same incarceration article, quoting the Bueau of Justice statistics:
"A 2002 study survey showed that among nearly 275,000 prisoners released in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years, and 51.8% were back in prison."
We have locked up so many people, while simultaneoulsy disenfranchising them that we have so changed the voter base as to alter the outcome of elections.

Along with our growth in the population behind bars has been the growth of the very high cost of keeping them there, again from wikipedia, in hopes that readers will look further than this post:
By removing the barrier to felons voting, we would be acting to be more fair, but more importantly, we would be acting to reduce the number of former crminals who continue to offend, who make a revolving door of our prison system, to our cost.  When former felons legally vote, they become more involved as participants in our communities, they invest themselves in those communities, they begin to care in ways they did not previously in the success and safety and well being of those communities  instead of victimizing them.

It does not obviously reform all criminals, but it does statistically make a significant difference, at no financial cost to government.  The reason this does not appeal to Republicans, whether they admit it or not, is that there is some evidence that reformed felons tend to vote Democratic more often than they vote Republican, so that this would not benefit them in elections the way disenfranchising voters would.  If the Republicans have to persuade a larger electorate of the wisdom and desirability of their policies, they tend to lose.

Governor Dayton did the right thing in vetoing the Voter ID bill, but I'm sure it will be back, courtesy of the Republicans, in subsequent legislative session.  His executive order was a much better alternative, that addressed an actual existing problem, not a conservative fantasy.  But far better for Governor Dayton would be to address removing the prohibition of felons from voting entirely, which would be an even larger savings on current expenditures, make our government smaller and less intrusive, and far more cost effective, and more fair in terms of enfranchising the largest possible electorate.  To do that would make our government more genuinely representative, and would more closely reflect the premise of one person, one vote.

To do so would be following the trend of other states in this country, and of other countries world wide, a step forward, not the step backwards that the GOP and Tea Party would have us take to a worse time, to a fantasy world in their ideology that has never existed.  Other states currently allow felons to vote while behind bars, notably Vermont and Main, others have made it possible for felons to vote while on parole or probation.

Lets make it simple. Lets allow felons to vote if they want to do so; any felons.  The potential benefit is fewer crimes, fewer criminals, more voters, less cost, and less intrusive government butting into people's private lives.  It is a start to lowering that population behind bars which should be an embarrassment to Americans, which clearly costs us money we could better spend elsewhere.  We are not the land of the free with so many people anything but free.  We are no model of democracy when we deny so many people the vote, needlessly.

Governor Dayton, Democrats in the legislature, make this your counterproposal to the Voter ID legislation.  Save us money, make government smaller and less intrusive. Make us more free by making more people free to vote.  Heaven knows the Republicans won't; they've proven that for decades.

23 comments:

  1. I take it you're against having to show proof of citizenship to vote also? That is the whole gist of arguments for voter I.D. legislation. Depending on who's statistics you use, there are anywhere from ten or twelve Million to upwards of fifty Million illegal immigrants in the US today. Voter I.D. legislation is intended to keep those people from voting because they DO NOT have the right to vote.

    As far as Felons voting...I'll give you that one, but that was not what the legislation was aimed at.

    Mike G.

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  2. The legislation was aimed at voter fraud, period. Here it has been promoted as preventing any illegal person from voting, but mostly to prevent people from voting more than once.

    NO, when you write: "Depending on who's statistics you use, there are anywhere from ten or twelve Million to upwards of fifty Million illegal immigrants in the US today. Voter I.D. legislation is intended to keep those people from voting because they DO NOT have the right to vote."

    Sorry, Mr. G. but you are wrong again. That is an inaccurate, factually wrong statement. I would suggest you read some more of the actual documents and studies about election fraud.

    We do not have a problem in this country with illegal immigrants voting. You appear to be unfamiliar with how the data base which produces the voter rolls are maintained in nearly every state. I can particularly address how they are maintained in Minnesota, where they are cross referenced with numerous other data bases, including the data base of drivers licenses. There is no need to produce a drivers license to check to see if someone is an illegal immigrant - that is already done prior to election day.

    I don't know your source of that idea, but you should check further, because someone has lied to you. It is part of the right wing immigrant paranoia package that has no documented foundation of fact.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=131089170

    There are entire books written on the subject. Illegal immigrants voting is a conservative myth, just one more way in which the right ramps up illegal immigration fears.


    The chair of our Sociology Department at the U of MN is Chris Uggens. Uggens is one of the leading experts on voter fraud, not only in MN, or the U.S., but in the world. He's a very smart man. He writes scholarly papers on this subject, and very carefully researches the problem of voter fraud. His work is very carefully peer reviewed and challenged, and verified.

    It was Chris Uggens work, among others, that Fox News, Tim Pawlenty and Michele Bachmann, among others GROSSLY MISREPRESENTED to claim that felons voting had altered the outcome of elections, particularly the election of MN Senator Franken in 2008. When I read the studies used to justify those claims, it turned out that what Uggens and others had found was that LEGALLY RE-ENFRANCHISED FORMER FELONS, not illegally voting felons, tended to vote for democrats more often than for republicans. But the right inaccurately claimed that it showed felons were illegally voting for democrats, when those studies showed no such thing. The studies very clearly indicated what our recounts and other checks showed - that felons did NOT vote illegally while disenfranchised.

    I've read not all of it, but some of it, and of other scholars on the subject. So has my colleague Pen.

    Voter fraud is rare; illegal immigrant voter fraud is so rare as to be virtually non-existent.

    I would also suggest you be very clear on the differences between voter registration fraud and actual voting fraud, but that is a separate topic. The two are not the same.

    Btw - if you do read Uggens and other experts and scholars on voter fraud, you will also find that the so-called conservative efforts to prevent voter fraud have typically disenfranchised very LARGE numbers of legal voters, who are improperly, illegally DENIED their constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

    So, how much do you value that constitutional right Mr. G? Do you think it should be taken away from you or your fellow citizens because of a factually inaccurate fear on the part of conservatives, without documentation of the problem being real?

    I don't. Your right wing sources are inaccurte Mr. G. I hope you will find Penigma a source of facts. I do not challenge a right wing myth unless I can back it up with quality sources that I actually READ, which is more than is done on the right.

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  3. We have proven here in MN that the very few people who have voted in the last 2 elections improperly were felons. Not people voting more than once, not illegal immigrants. Felons who were prematurely voting due largely to paperwork snafus and clerical errors on the part of the corrections people where there was some confusion about their voting rights being back in effect.

    That was it.

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  4. Curious, Mr. G claims to be a libertarian, yet he supports a bill requiring STATE ISSUED IDENTIFICATION CARDS!

    Somehow Mr. G misses the threat to liberty and privacy posed by the rapid growth of the database state, of which ID cards are the most visible part. It's odd that someone who claims to be a "libertarian" misses that state control of personal identity among the general public, in the media, and at every level in government is a threat to liberty.

    I am curious as to why this is?

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  5. oh yeah--Let's get this straight — it isn't just about identity cards. The government's identity scheme includes a huge database to keep tabs on everyone, a massive infrastructure to collect peoples' details, and a giant network of technology required to verify people against their cards and both of these against the database.

    The card is just the tip of the iceberg.

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  6. Mr. G,

    At no time in the history of our country prior to 1860 was it EVER required to show proof of citizenship. As a liberterian, I assume you agree with our founding fathers that such proof is unnecessary or otherwise, they'd have expressly included it in our Constitution as a requirement to be afforded your inalienable right to vote?

    More seriously, I assume you agree that voting is an inalienable right (as a liberterian) and you are aghast and appalled at the grab for power this specious claim of voter fraud represents, a grab which according to the prestigious Brennan Law review at the New York University School of Law says will strip between 5% and 10% of the electorate of that same, fundamental right. A right so important to our liberty and continuation of our democracy that our founders felt it imperative to NOT put any fetters on that right.

    As a patriot, as a deep and strong believer in that great experiment (as Lincoln phrased it), I am offended beyond words at the audacity of the right to strip basic liberties from average Aemricans under the guise of "protecting" voting results which aren't at risk.

    It is a big government solution in search of an actual problem, and worse, it is a naked attempt, through many different guises, to simply strip rights and disenfranchise voters quite simply and ONLY because the belief by Republicans is that they believe it will affect more Democrats than Republicans and thereby allow them to win more elections. It is the flip side of voter fraud, fraudulently presenting a non-problem to improperly and unethically reduce the votes of their opponents. Whether it's voter ID requirements, restrictions on absentee ballots, shortening windows for absentee voting or a myriad of other plans supported SOLELY by Republicans, the goal isn't integrity, it isn't protecting us from aliens voting (that concern is specious), the goal is purely stealing elections.

    If you are the liberterian you want to be, you should be just as offended. For if it can be done to the poor today, who will stop it when it is done to gun owners tomorrow, or those who are self-employed, and so on..?

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  7. There is an interesting trend in Libertarianism to despise "the State", yet always maintain what are the state’s coercive apparatuses of law, police, and military. If it isn't the "state" per se, it is countless private states, with each person supplying their own police force, army, and law, or else purchasing these services from capitalist vendors.

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  8. All I know is in my state, South Carolina, we've always had to show our driver's license at the poll and have our name checked off the voter roll before we can vote.

    In North Carolina where I work, I've witnessed people registering illegals to vote. Funny thing was, they were wearing Obama T-shirts...figure the odds...and yes I reported them, but the county I work in is a Democratic stronghold and I never heard another thing about it.

    Sometimes you can't go by what you've read in books or reports - you have to consider the source - but go by what you actually see with your own eyes.

    I've never claimed to be a Libertarian. I've always said I am a Conservative, although there are some views held by Libertarians that I might agree with.

    I am against any form of "National ID", as proposed by some in government. But we have had state issued ID cards for several decades now. It enables people without driver's license to cash checks, go through airport security and show proof of age when buying alcohol and tobacco products as well as other times where an ID is required.

    Mike G.

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  9. First of all----- you know the legal status of illegal immigrants....how?

    Secondly, there are huge numbers of people who are registered to vote, but almost none who actually vote illegally. In part this is because the system which checks voter rolls works, and in part due to other causes.

    Here is a conservative site that explains the distinction between voter registration fraud, and actual election fraud - which is very very different:
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Two_kinds_of_fraud.html?showall


    So simply observing people you BELIEVE to be illegal registering means NOTHING.

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  10. There are towns in South Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona where 10-20% of the population are non-citizens. Since the right to vote is reserved for citizens how do you propose we enforce that? I mean it is required you have liability insurance to drive here so whenever you get pulled over, renew your registration, get your car inspected, rent a car, or buy a new car you have to show proof of insurance so why shouldn't you show proof of citizenship when you vote? And exactly how does showing id disenfranchise voters? Are you actually trying to say that people would rather not vote than show an id? Are they scared to cash their paycheck? I bet the bank asks for id.

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  11. I propose we enforce that only citizens vote by the same way we maintain the voter rolls NOW, Tuck.

    Do you know how your state does that? If you don't I suggest you check your Secretary of State website, and contact your local county government to find out.

    Do you have ANY substantiation WHATSOEVER that there is voting being done in the places you describe? All that voter ID does is to verify that the person voting is who they say they are; plenty of states provide ID and/or Drivers Licenses to non-citizens. ID never has been used for proof of citizenship, and it is a poor means to do so.

    More to the point, what voter fraud is there that needs a solution? None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

    There is a big difference between an optional commercial association, versus being at risk for denial of your constitutional rights.

    Further - this is costly, it is not funded. Show where this additional cost is justified in a time of such economic distress; show where this is NOT an unfunded mandate that burdens county jurisdictions.

    As to ID at a bank - you don't have to show ID to make a deposit, only to cash a check (and not even then if you are well known at your bank or a retail establishment).

    Want proof of disenfranchisement?

    Here:
    http://www.alternet.org/rights/67161/

    http://www.politicususa.com/en/gop-voter-id-minorities
    (disclaimer, both Pen and I have written for politicususa.com)

    but I think this link gives the best explanation, one that pertains very much as well to MN:

    http://prettyimportant.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/voter-id-will-disenfranchise-rural-wisconsin/

    "The proposed voter ID bill making its way through the state legislature will disenfranchise an untold number of rural citizens without a readily accessible Department of Motor Vehicles service center.

    As currently written, SB 6 requires a voter to present either a state issued driver license or ID card, or a military ID at the polls in order to vote. The state issued forms of identification are available only at DMV service centers. Currently three Wisconsin counties lack any DMV service center, and many of the rural centers are open only a few days per month.

    During the last state budget session, both the Tomah and Black River Falls DMV service centers were cut from the budget. State Rep. Mark Radcliffe worked to restore funding for the centers, but there is no guarantee they will make it through future cuts. If the nearest service center for a citizen is 50 miles away, how will they get there when they already lack a driver license? Public transportation? Ha!

    The director of the Government Accountability Board recommends changes to SB 6 to allow passports and college IDs to be used, but that probably won’t help a resident of Bear Bluff or Hatfield.

    The bill also requires a photocopy of ID be included with absentee ballots mailed in, disenfranchising all homebound citizens without access to a copy machine. GAB director Kennedy wisely calls for that provision to be removed as well."

    I don't believe the photocopy requirement WAS removed from the final bill, or that it was removed from the MN bill either, but I haven't read the final version, that is only an impression.

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  12. Tuck,

    I would ask you a question in a different way.

    How do you "enforce" a right?

    Rights are inalienable, they exist whether we agree, whether we act, they exist. We do not "enforce" that which is immutable. No, we act to preserve them, to protect them.

    In short, we do not take those rights away from others. We instead act to ensure our liberties are available for us.

    Your language seems to me to be the language of fear, of fear of loss, of fear that someoen will intrude, rather than seeking instead to ensure you are afforded your right. Your language seems to speak to a need to act agsinst "bad people", to use force to do so to enforce a right which in fact can only be lost if we let it be taken away. It is the continuing province of conservatism that they appear to seek to govern from fear more than they seek to govern from logic, in my opinion.

    In truth, there is nearly no proof of such rights being taken up by others illegally, in fact there is next to no evidence of non-citizens voting improperly, yet you would have us act to ensure that those "bad people" CAN'T do something - that's not preserving a liberty, it's ensuring others don't get that liberty when they don't deserve it.

    Where is your concern about protecting YOUR liberty, where is your concern about protecting the liberty of your fellow citizens. For just as certainly as the integrity of elections is comprimised by over-votes cast illegally, it is FAR more comprimised by keeping your fellow citizens from voting.

    There is NO need for this "fix" to "enforce" a liberty (logical falacy aside), but there certainly is a need to act to PROTECT the liberty of your fellow citizens.

    I am far less worried about the nearly non-existent instace of over voting, but would be willing to consider some measure of assurance, but where is your concern for ACTUALLY protecting those freedoms we all profess to love so dearly?

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  13. Tuck, you mentioned people cashing checks. You do realize, right, that people drive or cash checks, as a privilege?

    It differs from being a right. There are people by necessity or choice who do not drive, or who prefer not to use checking accounts.

    Do you have ANY evidence whatsoever that those communities which have large non-citizen populations have had voter fraud by thoes populations?

    Are those communities not served by local, county, state and federal attorneys, be it the city or county attorneys, or the state and federal AG and Justice Dept. lawyers?

    Under the Bush administration there was an active effort to find instances of voter fraud, preferably to prosecute. They couldn't find them, including in the places you listed.

    So if you've now found them I'd like to hear about it.

    Otherwise you simply sound paranoid about immigrant populations. Please, ask yourself first if that is reasonable, based on the evidence, rather than fear-driven as Pen identified.

    Let me remind you, again, along with Mr. G. that there is also a HUGE difference in the occurrence of voter registration problems, but that they do not translate into voter fraud problems with people actually voting in elections improperly.

    I would imagine that one reason is that no one in their right mind wants to risk being busted red-handed when they show up to vote by having been identified in the voter roll check, committing a felony.

    Also those other IDS that are accepted, like college and university photo IDs? How do you explain those proving citizenship?

    Because there is absolutely no such requirement to get one. Therefore I would argue that the very ID that is being proposed fails to provide the protection claimed for this exercise in voter suppression by the right.

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  14. DG, first off the no evidence of voter fraud is not a good argument. If there is no evidence of robberies in your neighborhood do you leave your door unlocked? No because not taking preventive measures invites trouble. The more non-citizens that live here the higher the chances are that there will be people voting that should not be. It may not even be intentional. The county I live in allows all legal residents to vote in city council elections, county commissioner elections, and several local elections. I have no idea how they determine who gets what ballot on the yrs there are both local and federal candidates on the ballot. I do know that Texas requires you be a legal resident to get a drivers license so yes a drivers license is a bad way to prove citizenship. I suppose when someone registers through the DMV when getting or renewing a drivers license the voter registration shows if they are a citizen or legal resident but if someone picks up a form in a registration drive then the person must not only be honest but has to know what elections they are eligible to vote in. So when you say no evidence of voter fraud I look at my county and just for instance the number of presidential votes is under the number of registered voters, but how many of the registered voters were only eligible to vote in local elections? I can't see where anyone has even tried to count that.

    And Pen as far as protecting the rights that is what this is all about. What exactly is your right to vote worth if someone who does not have the right to vote goes in and votes opposite you? Like I said above I have no problem with legal residents voting in local elections, their kids go to school here and they help pay for the schools but is there a way to make sure that is all they vote in?

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  15. Tuck wrote:
    "DG, first off the no evidence of voter fraud is not a good argument. If there is no evidence of robberies in your neighborhood do you leave your door unlocked?"

    Tuck, this is a badly flawed analogy.

    More akin to would I agree that people should be strip searched and cavity searched before they were allowed in my neighborhood, for security reasons, without their being any crime, reported or even credible anectdotal, just becaues the crazy, senile old lady in the house on the corner was convinced she had been abducted by UFOs - or COULD BE.

    Before you creaed an intrusive security, one which will effectively disenfranchise some LEGAL voters, you darn well better have a real reason, a factual and objective reason.

    So far there is no credible evidence that this is necessary, while there is every evidence that it is costly and unfunded, that it will make elections more inefficient, without making ANY election more safe, and while making voting var more difficult if not impossible for some legal voters.

    Give me a better explanation than maybe could someday who knows, even if there isn't any actual voter fraud, for what these people will not have to go through if they want to vote.
    "The proposed voter ID bill making its way through the state legislature will disenfranchise an untold number of rural citizens without a readily accessible Department of Motor Vehicles service center.

    As currently written, SB 6 requires a voter to present either a state issued driver license or ID card, or a military ID at the polls in order to vote. The state issued forms of identification are available only at DMV service centers. Currently three Wisconsin counties lack any DMV service center, and many of the rural centers are open only a few days per month."

    Voter fraud is easy to prosecute; people have to sign their names and provide a verifiable address and some proof they live at that address to vote, either on the day of the election or to register in advance of that election.

    A photo ID is an unnecessary hardship, an unnecesary expense, an unnecessary bar to legal indivduals to vote - for no damn good reason.

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  16. Just curious but what do people in those counties do when their drivers license expires? The reason I don't see having a photo id as a real hardship is where I live it is required to drive, required to write a check at most stores, required to buy tobacco or alcohol, required to open a bank account, required to get a job. So maybe that is why I can't understand this hardship created by showing an id to vote. Not having a photo id here is a far more difficult hardship than getting one.

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  17. That's once every four years, with a year's grace. Once or twice a decade, for those who still drive in the case of old people, disabled.

    That was just the issues for people in rural jurisdictions; students, like college students, usually keep their original driver's license in many cases - as an example - if the primary vehicle they drive belongs to their parents back home, for convenience. Then there are all of those who live in metro areas, who rely on public transportation, and who have ID that works for them but is not ID that the voter ID law recognizes.

    When you start adding up the different groups of people who are excluded with this law, it can be a real surprise just how many people who are LEGAL voters and who have already proven they are citizens when they registered as voters, and therefore shouldn't need to repeatedly prove it.

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  18. I was talking to some people online last night and found out where most of our disagreement comes from. Where you live they require you, at least the first time you register, to register in person and show some sort of id? Well here they do not. Two of us in the discussion last night (Texas and New York) could register to vote by mail without ever having to show proof of anything. You fill out the form and mail it in and get a voter registration card. In New York they have to show a photo id and their voter registration to vote, in Texas it is either or. So here there is absolutely no way to know if the person voting is a citizen or if they are the person named on the registration card. Now if you had to show some kind of id when you registered I would tend to agree with you that all this is unneccessary but you don't here. Also the voter id bill being put forth here will accept any government id with your picture on it. Drivers license, passport, military id, and the id they issue for people who need a photo id and do not drive (mainly for proof of age and airports now). So maybe what they are doing in Wisconsin is unneccessary but it is needed here and not as inconvenient as what they proposed there.

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  19. Tuck,

    I'll respond to your last comment next, but in reply to your prior comment.

    You seem to say that simply because you can't PROVE burglaries doesn't mean you wouldn't put a lock on your door, failing to do so invites trouble.

    The issue is that in this case, that's not so. States without voter ID requirements don't have problems with illegal voting moreso than states which DO have ID requirements.

    Further, and just an FYI, most rural communities comment on how you "can leave your door unlocked at night" speaking directly to the fact that normally, NO, we don't create laws or take steps to stop things which aren't happening in the first place. Doing so is exactly the kind of "big government" solution to a problem which doesn't exist.

    Your vote IS NOT being dilluted by thousands of illegal votes, your vote is FAR more at risk of loss due to you forgetting to register, or being unable due to work demands, to vote on election day. The rules for absentee voting are being screwed down to make it more difficult, they are being changed to NOT allow you to register the same day. In short, the laws are being changed so that those who may be ambivelent about voting in general, who are poor, or who are working many hours, will find it more difficult to vote.

    THAT's a MUCH more serious threat, and it is being done for a fraudulent notion. You should be outraged that your fellow citizens are being robbed of their right to vote, and will be robbed by the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, to stop something which isn't happening in the first place.

    Where is that outrage among those who profess to love our freedoms? The right to vote is exactly that, a RIGHT, something not to be infringed without GREAT need. There is no such great need, and those who infringe upon it are doing so for all the worst reasons. They know full well this isn't an issue, they know full well this is a big-government intrusion, they don't care. They want to win by any means necessary and they don't mind lying to you about the threat to get you to vote for it. This is little different than the fear mongering about Iraq, the fear mongering about the destruction of marraige which will come about as a result of gays marrying, or the fear mongering about flouridation of the water, the fear mongering about how Social Security would lead to the United States becoming a communist nation, and so on..

    While you "worry" about all those "damned illegals" voting, they (the right wing leadership) is busy planning how to marginalize your ability to affect government, planning how to hide from you the fact that they are spending profligately on their own businesses from public coffers, and planning how to move your job overseas while getting you to use your home equity to payoff credit debt THEY encouraged you to take on.

    Perhaps it's time to stop being afraid, stand up for your fellow man, and say "Enough."

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  20. Tuck

    Why have anyone PROVE anything? There is no need. There are essentially NO fraudulent votes.

    Why step on people's rights for no good reason?

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  21. ttuck wrote:"Now if you had to show some kind of id when you registered I would tend to agree with you that all this is unneccessary but you don't here."

    For Pete's sake Tuck, just call your darn Secretary of State and get the straight factual story would you, instead of trading right wing misinformation and disinformation and inaccuracies masquerading as fact with these people on line.

    They are full of stinky you-know-what.

    Sorry Tuck, but you and your friends on line are still wrong, still ill-informed, still factually inaccurate about this.

    FURTHER, you fail to distinguish between the very important issue of voter registration fraud, and actual vote fraud in elections.

    You can register to vote here in MN without showing proof of ID. There have been voter registration drives where people filled out forms to vote without providing ID to those volunteering for the drive. You can apply pretty much anywhere for an absentee ballot without having to provide ID to an election official, if you are for some reason housebound in some way, as are many of our elderly voters who live in some kind of care facility because of physical debilitation due to aging.

    You can show up the day of the election with ID and/or two proofs of residency, like utility bills in your name and/or someone who IS a registered voter to vouch for you, and vote.

    The reason that works - either here, or in Texas, or in any of the other states, DC, and territories where people can vote for that matter, is that the voter roll data bases are maintained and cross checked to ensure that you are in fact a LEGAL voter, and a LEGAL citizen.

    Additionally, you have to swear that you are a citizen, and legally allowed to vote, by signing in.

    The only reason for the very minor prolem of felons incorrectly voting has been that, unlike the other data bases that were checked and rechecked and checked again regularly throughout the year to maintain the voter data base, in MN the felon data was done on paper, and was being done manually, and tended to lag other data for accuracy.

    Sheesh! Here is the information for the MN Sec State; feel free to call or email to verify the information (that I have already fact checked with them, for previous voter faud posts here and comments elsewher.)http://www.sos.state.mn.us/index.aspx?page=134

    And to make it easier for you to get the factual information rather than the right wing garbage and propaganda that circulates about voter fraud and vote registration - because that is what it is - here is the same information for your home state of Texas, so you don't even have to look it up.

    http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/voter/reqvr.shtml

    I want to leave no pretext, no excuse for you being ill informed on this. You know my mantra, my guiding principle, my phiolosophy of blogging - fact check, fact check, fact check.

    Do it Tuck!

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  22. ok here is the point I am making. Just an example. Say I go to the phone book and pick 10 names, pick them in neighborhoods with 10% or so voter turnout. I register under each of those names and then send in absentee ballots for each. When they check the rolls each of the people I picked actually live at the address on the registration form. Now unless one of those 10 shows up at a polling place or sends in an absentee ballot there is no way to catch me. I don't think this is happening in large numbers but there is nothing to prevent it. In fact I will say that after talking to 2 people who deal with immigrants it is far more likely that people who get green cards think they have the right to vote and register. Technically that is fraud but in reality that is just an honest misunderstanding. As far as the no proof of this happening let me ask you this. If John Doe walks into a polling place with a voter registration form that says Jack Smith and no one checks an id then there is absolutely no evidence of voter fraud but it happened. If you are not checking to make sure the person and the voter registration match you have no way of knowing if this is happening or not.

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  23. A couple of problems with this Tuck.
    1. Each of the people with absentee ballots will be cross checked that they live at those addresses.

    The absentee ballots are sent to those people at their addresses -- they are checked and verified.

    So, unless you are also committing mail fraud by stealing their mail, how do you GET these absentee ballots you claim to be mailing in?

    Secondly, at least here, and I believe in most states, absentee ballots require a witness signature (see my post about the nuns absentee ballot irregularities in WI, lacking witness signatures). Now you have anther person involved with this fraud, names which can and are checked and verified as well.

    IF you could show me this fraud was happening, that someone got away with it, that the OTHER checks built into the system to prevent voter fraud were not working, checks and balances which do not similarly disenfranchise people, then I would agree.

    But that is NOT the case.

    I see your state has a brochure on voting; you should get one, write something here for Penigma on the contents. Please, if you can spare even a small amount of time, also consider contacting your TX Sec State and talk with them about what they do to prevent voter fraud, and include that.

    I think if you do that, your concerns will be addressed. I'd love to see you write about that here Tuck; please consider it.

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